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Tappet Noise

Discussion in 'Problems, Fixes, Tips...' started by BarnsleyRob, Aug 30, 2017.

  1. BarnsleyRob

    BarnsleyRob Copenworld Veteran

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2017
    Location:
    South Yorks
    Car(s):
    2009/59 silver Copen 1298 cc (now gone to a new home)
    The trouble with tinkering with a car is you slowly notice more noises than you fix !

    Anyway, a couple of weeks ago I noticed a light tappet noise on startup which pretty much disappears once the engine is warm. The car was serviced when I bought it and I've only done around 2k miles since. The oil is still a nice clear golden colour but I did notice a very light deposit of crud at the top of the oil filler (so light that it was all removed with one wipe of a paper towel). There are no misfires or performance flat spots and aside from the battery, it fires first time on the button.

    I'm now in two minds as to whether to get it serviced 6 months early or, I suspect, I've just got used to the other rattles etc that I'm picking up a noise that's always been there and is perfectly normal for a petrol engine (having driven diesels since 2002).
     
  2. Salieri

    Salieri Copenworld Veteran

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2012
    Location:
    Germany
    Car(s):
    Pearlescent White Copen (1.3 K3-VE)
    What kind of oil do you use? Brand, Viscosity, Specifications (API/ACEA)

    I'm sure you do not mean the rattling sound the timing chain makes on startup (~ 1-2 seconds).
    I think tappet sound is quite accurate for a description, I know that sound, especially when cold.

    However, I have changed my oil recently to "Shell Helix Ultra AV-L 0W-30" (ACEA C3, VW 507.00) and the engine has become a lot quieter on startup. Timing chain rattle is almost completely gone, probably because the chain tensioner gets the required oil pressure quicker.

    I would not worry too much though, its probably normal
     
  3. BarnsleyRob

    BarnsleyRob Copenworld Veteran

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2017
    Location:
    South Yorks
    Car(s):
    2009/59 silver Copen 1298 cc (now gone to a new home)
    @Salieri

    I'm not sure what the dealer used for the service when I bought it but I'm thinking of either Edge Long Life Engine Oil - 5W-30 - 4ltr|Car PartsRetailer or the fully synthetic.

    I don't really thrash my engines so it's no more than 3000 rpm until warm and not much more than 4,000 after that. I find the 1.3 to have more than enough torque to stay in 3rd or 4th around town.

    How do you drive yours ?
     
  4. Salieri

    Salieri Copenworld Veteran

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2012
    Location:
    Germany
    Car(s):
    Pearlescent White Copen (1.3 K3-VE)
    I usually shift around 2000-2500 rpm. Sometimes I get a little bit crazy and go up to 6000. But most of the time I just cruise at 50-60km/h (~35mph) in 5th.
    When I'm in a hurry on the Autobahn its pedal to the metal. I reached 195km/h once (~120mph). I think sometimes an engine "needs" a heavier load, but only when its warmed up. You know, carbon deposits and all that.

    If you do not know what kind of oil is in there (doesn't it say on the invoice?), I would be sceptical. My Daihatsu dealer uses 10W-40 if I do not bring my own oil (or do the inspection myself).
    I might just write a guide on choosing the correct engine oil....

    Would recommend this here for the next oil change:
    Shell Helix Ultra Professional AV-L 0W-30 5 Litre Can | eBay

    This oil is the factory first fill oil for VAG cars (VW, Audi...)
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2017
  5. welz

    welz Copenworld Regular

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2015
    Location:
    Leverkusen, Germany
    Car(s):
    copen 2003
    I use this one for my turbo and MB, Pontiac and Kawasaki..best ever i had used before..

    4 X 5L= 20 Liter Total 5W-40 Quartz 9000 Energ

    with castrol edge 5/30 my engines needed a lot of oel..

    my copen needs 9,5 litre petrol and driven with 3500 to 8000 rpm with hks loader and hks exhaust, bov.etc

    in town i does nt need the 5 gear.
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2017
  6. Salieri

    Salieri Copenworld Veteran

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2012
    Location:
    Germany
    Car(s):
    Pearlescent White Copen (1.3 K3-VE)
    I have to note that welz's car is a bit out of the ordinary as its heavily tuned, which makes 5W-40 a good choice. The regular K3-VE engine can use 5W-30 or 0W-30 as long as you are not taking it on a track day.
     
  7. BarnsleyRob

    BarnsleyRob Copenworld Veteran

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2017
    Location:
    South Yorks
    Car(s):
    2009/59 silver Copen 1298 cc (now gone to a new home)
    Thanks guys. I think I'll go for the 5W-30 fully synthetic as it's only for road use and we rarely get really cold weather (-20C) in the UK. I'm going to leave it another couple of hundred miles just to make sure there's no freaky accumulation of crud on the filler cap. If there is, I might invest in a quick engine flush. A local mechanic has suggested diluting the existing oil with 0.5 litres of parafin after removing som elf the oil first.
     
  8. Salieri

    Salieri Copenworld Veteran

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2012
    Location:
    Germany
    Car(s):
    Pearlescent White Copen (1.3 K3-VE)
    Do not use paraffin or diesel to flush your engine period. Usually you do not need engine flushes, but if you have the need for it, use something off the shelf, like wynns. There is a huge performance gap when it comes to 5W-30 oils, so please read my guide below and get an oil that meets the specifications.

    Personally, I would not go for Castrol 5W-30 LongLife. It is mediocre and expensive. Brands I can recommend are Total, Shell and local "no-name" brands that have a valid manufacturer approval.

    Here is a little guide on choosing engine oil I typed myself a few years ago:

    The manual for the 1.3 has the following requirements when it comes to oil:

    API SH or above, recommended viscosity 5W-30 or 5W-20

    Oil change intervals: 0.66: 5000km (~3000 miles) or 6 months, 1.3: 15000km (~10000 miles) or 1 year.

    Requirements
    The API specifications are ascending alphabetically. So for example, API SL is more modern than API SH. The current best is API SN. As this specification is not very sophisticated, it is better to rely on the european ACEA.
    For a Copen, the ACEA A3/B4 is best. ACEA C3 can also be used, although it is meant to be used with diesel engines.

    ACEA A1 and A5 are oils with lowered high temperature high shear (HTHS) viscosity, which makes them not suitable for Copen and can lead to excessive wear.

    Manufacturer Approvals
    Many car manufacturers have their own requirements and specifications, which often exceed API or ACEA.
    Noteworthy examples would be BMW LL01 and MB 229.5, which I recommend using. Please note that a Mercedes Benz Approval is only valid if it says "MB Approval xxx.xx" on the canister. A simple "MB xxx.xx" or "meets the specifications of xxx" does not suffice.

    Viscosity
    Viscosity should be minimal when having a cold start to prevent wear, but offer enough strength when the engine is at operating temperature. Oils with 0W or 5W cold viscosity are recommended.

    Viscosities I would use in a Copen would be:
    0W-30
    5W-30
    0W-40
    5W-40

    If you are putting a lot of strain on the engine or driving in hot conditions, a oil that ends in 40 is recommended.
    5W50 and 10W40 should not be used.

    Note: Some people might say 0W oil is "too thin", but this is an urban myth which has been disproven many times over.

    Brands
    The brand of engine oil is not too important. It is however important that the viscosity and specification is correct. It is better to change your oil 2x with a cheap oil than only 1x with an expensive one. Cheap engine oil does not have to be bad if it has the correct viscosity and a valid manufacturer approval.

    Conclusion
    * Use 0W or 5W oils that have ACEA A3/B4 specification
    * If possible, use oils that also have a manufacturer approval (MB 229.5 is best for Copen)
    * Do not be fooled by clever marketing
    * Change your oil regularly
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2017
  9. BarnsleyRob

    BarnsleyRob Copenworld Veteran

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2017
    Location:
    South Yorks
    Car(s):
    2009/59 silver Copen 1298 cc (now gone to a new home)
    @Salieri
    Useful information. Thanks.
     
    Salieri likes this.
  10. Trowelone

    Trowelone Copenworld Newbie

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2018
    Location:
    Colchester
    Car(s):
    Copen 1.3
    This is one of the many ways this club is great. Very helpful. Thank you
    Regards.
     
    Salieri likes this.
  11. AFR0N1

    AFR0N1 Copenworld Regular

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2018
    Location:
    Greater Manchester
    Car(s):
    Daihatsu Copen L880K (KMVZW)
    The more I read about engine oil, the more confused I get.
    Castrols website recommended Magnatec 5w30 SN A5 oil, but from what I'm reading here, I shouldn't use A5?

    I then went to Mobil, and they recommend Mobil 1 ESP 5w30 SN C2/C3.
    They also recommend Mobil 1 X1 5w30 SN A1/B1 A5/B5

    I checked the workshop manuals and they dont say what ACEA rating to use, It simply says to use 5w30 SG or higher.

    As far as noise goes, I occasionally hear a little bit of tapping noise at idle when I listen carefully.
     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2019
  12. Salieri

    Salieri Copenworld Veteran

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2012
    Location:
    Germany
    Car(s):
    Pearlescent White Copen (1.3 K3-VE)
    They can recommend all they want, but it does not necessarily have be be right. You can theoretically use A1 or A5 oils, but why bother if you can get "the good stuff" for the same price?
    The workshop manual does not list ACEA (Association des Constructeurs Européens d'Automobiles - European Automobile Manufacturers Association), because the car is not from Europe

    I personally am still very pleased with the Shell Helix Ultra AV-L 0W-30. No noises.
    UK ebay link: Shell Helix Ultra Professional AV-L 0w-30 Fully Synthetic Engine Oil - 5 Litres 604310222642 | eBay

    Btw: If I use the german Castrol site, they recommend Castrol Edge 0W-30 (ACEA C3, MB229.51)
     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2019

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